Editor
My impression was that 25 and 26 depict a number of characters during the short period of instrumentality after the third impact, focusing on Shinji, and that End of Evangelion told the actual story.
This is more or less the gist of it.
I personally believe that both endings start out the same (with the first half of EoE), and then split off into either the series ending or the second half of EoE, but I'm not going to get into that. >_>
I preferred episode 25 to 26 mostly because I found Shinji's experience in instrumentality inferior to the others'. Once it got to the whole "Shinji must decide the fate of humaaaaaaaaaaaaanityyyyyy!!" thing in End of Evangelion, I really began to dislike the character.
I'm not going to defend Shinji too much even though I do like him, but I am going to say that one of the biggest reasons I didn't like End of Evangelion was because I felt like it derailed Shinji's character.
With just the main series, Shinji's one of my favorites (Asuka and Ritsuko are up there too); factoring in EoE he falls to like... dead last, I think.
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Liberal Arts Major
This topic reminded me to actually watch the show. I just saw Episode 1, not bad >_>
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
How far are you?
Spoilers follow, although now that I added the handy tag to the topic title you should expect that.
I know Kaworu is probably incredibly controversial given the utter lack of screentime he has, but I honestly think he does more with the like ~15 minutes of screentime than most characters could do with say 15 hours, perhaps not most Evangelion characters, but nonetheless, Kaworu is so incredibly efficient with the time he is given.
True, he does do a lot with the time given, but I see him more as a plot device than an actual character, though I guess this didn't stop me from putting Rei and Ikari in my list. I have no trouble seeing how he could come in at #1 though, he's very compelling.
Regarding Shinji, I thought it was a very clear depiction on how someone would actually handle being thrown into that situation, and that how he tries to deal with, both on a large scale, and in his more mundane activities to be quite striking. You can watch how his mood shifts, kind of rising towards the middle of the series before being brutally crushed in a never-ending spiral.
I don't find this to be entirely the case. Shinji is not a normal person, and his early interaction with the Eva program reflects a lot of his uncommon attributes: his strained relation with his father and his pathetic, borderline self-hating attitude being the most important. If he were an accurate depiction of how Random Joe #498,301 would react in such a situation, his character would be a total failure. One of my initial reasons for liking Shinji wasn't necessarily that he was a good archetypal depiction of how someone would handle the story, but that he was so unique as a character, and his actions and feelings so fitting, that his characterization was entirely vivid and captivating.
I mean, yes, he doesn't handle it at all "heroically" by the latter stages, but hell, could anyone with even a semblance of believability do so?
He handles very little heroically. Let's not forget that he ran away. Twice. If you want heroism, I think the best place to find it in this series is in isolated incidents, e.g. Rei II's suicide, or in Misato (especially in End of Evangelion), Kaji, and/or Yui.
I mean, the first step I had to go through on all this was more or less what I suggested earlier, ignore the mechs entirely, they're not important except as metaphors and symbolism and what have you. Evangelion is mainly about the characters and how dysfunctional they are, and how they try to overcome their own flaws both within themselves and relating to others, and typically how they end up failing to overcome it.
Yes.
I actually have to admit yours is the first issue I've seen about Shinji in regard to how the focus gets put on him and his importance regarding the fate of humanity. Which is kind of odd to me, because I can definitely see where you're coming from. But regarding Shinji himself, I don't actually count that against him, or rather, I don't count it like that. It's just another thing thrown at him on top of everything else. I can definitely understand a complaint that the focus could have been better spent elsewhere on a "better" character, but I can't really call that a strike against Shinji himself. Perhaps the decisions regarding the plot, but not Shinji's character.
I see your point here, and I agree. Shinji should not be blamed for unrelated creative decisions. We have Anno for that!
And also, and arguably the biggest reason as to my opinion, is that I sympathized with Shinji. See, I think this may be where we differed. You said you felt Shinji was a great character early but then towards the end he dropped off. I sympathized with Shinji early, so when he did go through his freefall at the end, and make no mistake, he did collapse, and EoE Shinji is in a sense, to me, an "abomination", because I sympathized with him early, and watched the fall happen over time (although it goes into overdrive and well beyond the point of no return after Episode 24), I saw how and why it happened. Shinji didn't just disintegrate for no reason, it was a process and watching a character I had sympathized with get so thoroughly broken like that...
I don't know why, but I never really sympathized with Shinji. Consequently I wasn't emotionally attached to him when he began to collapse. Asuka, on the other hand...
I personally believe that both endings start out the same (with the first half of EoE), and then split off into either the series ending or the second half of EoE, but I'm not going to get into that. >_>
Perhaps Rebuild will clarify this, assuming Gainax doesn't go bankrupt or humanity is annihilated by roving space aliens before part four is released.
I'm not going to defend Shinji too much even though I do like him, but I am going to say that one of the biggest reasons I didn't like End of Evangelion was because I felt like it derailed Shinji's character. With just the main series, Shinji's one of my favorites (Asuka and Ritsuko are up there too); factoring in EoE he falls to like... dead last, I think.
Hm, this is a good point. End of Evangelion was a bad deal for Shinji fans. If I nix that monstrosity from the continuity, I think my list becomes:
Asuka
Kaji
Misato
Shinji
Ikari
Misato and Kaji switched places because, even though Misato's End of Evangelion death was not permanent and Kaji's was, I think the circumstances of her martyrdom are more compelling than Kaji's. When you go with the standard 26-episode continuity, you don't have the complete resolution of her character (you just know she dies maybe), and she loses a lot because of it.
I replaced Rei for similar reasons: without End of Evangelion's revelation of what her purpose really is, and without her ultimate betrayal of Gendo, she's not too interesting. Quiet clone girl does not an impressive character make.
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Message last edited by Ogordemir99 on 10/10/2009 at 03:43:47 AM
Liberal Arts Major
When I wrote that I was around episode 10.
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Editor
Nah, Rebuild's going a whole different route.
A route that largely consists of trolling.
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Liberal Arts Major
Worthless tidbit: that's the episode I decided not to go to sleep until I was done with the series.
Nah, Rebuild's going a whole different route. A route that largely consists of trolling.
I just finished watching Evangelion 1.11 and, apart from destroying a good portion of Kaji and Misato's characters by revealing that Misato knows about and can access Lilith (and by calling her Lilith...), it seemed basically identical to the original. I read the Wiki summary of 2.0, though, and trolling is an accurate description. "Soryu? Screw that noise!"
But. Grafix.
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Liberal Arts Major
They reuse the fucking Cicada noise too god damn much. >_>
At first, I thought it was neat. Now by the 17th episode I'm fucking pissed that it's played so god damn much.
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
Episode 25 and 26.
WORST. SERIES. ENDING. EVER.
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
I was way too busy being all sagely to notice this.
WORST. SERIES. ENDING. EVER.
I thought this at first, but then I saw End of Evangelion, which makes episodes 25 and 26 make sense, and then those two episodes seemed a lot better.
EDIT: Keeping in mind that if you see End of Evangelion first, you might just end up thinking episodes 25 and 26 suck.
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Message last edited by Ogordemir99 on 10/10/2009 at 05:59:33 PM
Liberal Arts Major
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Liberal Arts Major
What exactly the fuck happened in the final episodes?
<->
Violence is like duct tape; it fixes everything.
Liberal Arts Major
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Liberal Arts Major
I'm such a woman.
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Editor
http://img.imgcake.com/re-take_0001.jpg
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Elite
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http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9593/hxh17713kw2.png
Liberal Arts Major
Now get started on Monster!
I have.
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Editor
Also the amount of sex decreases with each volume until it becomes practically non-existent.
Edit: Also, don't read to the end of 2 and then stop. Just trust me on this. In fact, once you've gotten past 1, you pretty much have to read the whole thing or it'll probably just make things worse. <_<
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Message last edited by Kenri of the Yuri on 10/13/2009 at 05:27:58 AM
Liberal Arts Major
Rei's character was mangled to a hilarious extent ("let's throw paint on our heads!"), which was unfortunate, and Gendo was basically useless, which was also unfortunate. It was enjoyable, though; old Asuka and Shinji were top-quality. But it didn't cheer me up. Poor Rei got marginalized. =(
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Message last edited by Ogordemir99 on 10/13/2009 at 05:21:01 PM
Editor
[Spoiler for RE-TAKE just in case, click to show]Rei II was pretty weird, but I genuinely liked Rei III. I'd probably say something like:
Shinji > Asuka > "God" > Rei III > Maya > Misato = Ritsuko > Gendo > Kaji > Rei II
Maya and "God" absolutely steal the show, IMO, despite how little they both appear. I might just think that because they have two of my favorite lines in the series, though. >.>
</spoiler>
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Liberal Arts Major
Perhaps not surprisingly, I've grown to like NGE a lot more now than I did immediately after finishing it, especially now that the soul-crushing horror of End of Evangelion has faded. I'm glad I waited seven years to watch it, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have liked it as much, and I doubt I would have appreciated the complexity of its themes.
(As an aside, based on what I've read on the Internets it seems that people who have been depressed or have experienced some kind of loss/abuse take to the series like butter to bread. I'm not sure End of Evangelion is the best medicine for this particular problem.)
I still don't understand how the series critiques the genre - apart from mech anime, where the critiquing is fairly straightforward. I have however been reflecting on the significance of NGE's being anime, and by "reflecting" I mean imaging how a live action version would function. (A book is just not worth considering.) Apparently the alternate-reality scene in episode 26, featuring ditsy Rei, had a live-action, Shinji-less counterpart starring the voice actors as their characters (which explains the lack of Shinji) that got nixed. Similarly, the domestic producer of the series apparently had a live-action movie or series in the works. I don't think any of this is necessarily a good idea, but apart from the ridiculous production budget such a project would need to avoid failing on aesthetics alone (which means any significant live-action version would probably form a retelling, a la Rebuild, to allow them to adjust the story to their budget), I can't quite put my finger on why. In a previous post I noted that the Reiquarium and other things would be stripped of their nuance and reduced to pure nightmare fuel status, but I hesitate to say this would be the only or even the most significant change. Instrumentality would present a significant challenge, but in that case I'd imagine a live-action series would insert animation into the product to mirror the anime. All in all, I would be curious to see what something like that would look like, but not optimistic.
Anyway...
yessssssssssss you are awesome, much awesomer than xp
Why, does xp like one-dimensional characters who toss buckets of paint on their heads?
Spoilers should be assumed at this point.
Rei II was pretty weird, but I genuinely liked Rei III.
Rei II didn't strike me as weird in a palatable way; she was so bizarre it was hard to remain suspended in disbelief (which to me simply demonstrates poor writing). Rei III showed some signs of that bizarreness but was otherwise a likable character.
Shinji > Asuka > "God" > Rei III > Maya > Misato = Ritsuko > Gendo > Kaji > Rei II
Maya and "God" absolutely steal the show, IMO, despite how little they both appear. I might just think that because they have two of my favorite lines in the series, though. >.>
Well, like I said earlier, I don't remember Maya well enough to pass judgment, but apart from that I agree with this. Rei II was lolwut. Gendo had one interesting moment of character development - the part where he says he'll send Fuyutsuki to Matsushiro so he can attend the wedding - which he then goes on to invalidate almost immediately after by sending Asuka to her death. (Alternatively, instead of invalidating that character development, he's simply altering it to reflect how evil he is. Re-Take could have used the Pimp Gendo theme from ReDeath to great effect.) Kaji just sucked. Misato and Ritsuko were permanent fixtures of the background. On the other hand, "God" was awesome, and Shinji and Asuka were as well, moreso old Asuka than the pregnant one.
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Liberal Arts Major
...What are talking about?
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xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out?
Editor
xp refuses to read RE-TAKE.
In fairness, I refuse to read Eva R, soooo. <_<
[Spoiler for RE-TAKE, click to show]On the other hand, "God" was awesome, and Shinji and Asuka were as well, moreso old Asuka than the pregnant one.
I almost split up Asuka in that inequality, but the second/new/pregnant Asuka actually got some character development in After so I didn't. She was pretty one-dimensional before that though, probably intentionally to reflect how Shinji created that world. I think old Asuka even refers to it as a sick joke or something like that.
</spoiler>
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Liberal Arts Major
The best thing ever. Spoilers sort of.
xp refuses to read RE-TAKE.
RE-TAKE isn't bad, it's worth at least a skim. The sex portions though are rather unnecessary.
In fairness, I refuse to read Eva R, soooo. <_<
Never heard of it.
[Spoiler for RE-TAKE, click to show]I almost split up Asuka in that inequality, but the second/new/pregnant Asuka actually got some character development in After so I didn't. She was pretty one-dimensional before that though, probably intentionally to reflect how Shinji created that world. I think old Asuka even refers to it as a sick joke or something like that.
She does, in her monologue about how Shinji's going through alternate universe upon alternate universe banging every Asuka clone he sees. Pregnant Asuka does get a little bit of character development that parallels parts of the series (cf. the scan I posted above) in addition to becoming a genki girl when passing out wedding invitations.
</spoiler>
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~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Editor
Apparently it was successful enough to warrant a rerelease minus the sex scenes. Dunno if that's out yet, though, and if it is I doubt it's been translated.
Never heard of it.
It's a fanfic that is supposedly really good. <_<
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"There's a pony in the shop, but don't buy it. It might do something unfortunate to you." ~from the first Summoner's Seal topic
Liberal Arts Major
It's available and it's translated. You can find it along with the original here. I probably should have looked for this sooner.
It's a fanfic that is supposedly really good. <_<
I see. The website needs to use a lot less frames.
I read through Episode 27 regardless. It reinforced my intuition that the imagery of the series is as important as everything else. Re-Take is fairly good because, with a few exceptions, it faithfully depicts the universe. The writing for Eva R seems pretty good but its being writing with some sparse pictures substantially undermines its impact for me.
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Message last edited by Ogordemir99 on 10/17/2009 at 04:04:31 AM
Elite
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http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9593/hxh17713kw2.png
Liberal Arts Major
___
~ Ogordemir ~
"The sciences have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." ~ H.P Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu
Advanced
Enjoy it? I loved it but it scared me a lot.
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"Guide, my inner shadow, light and dark above...TRANSCEND THE STARS!" ~Golbez, Dissidia: Final Fantasy